<--- BACK TO SONGWRITER SITEYou can reach me at: jeffm@lyricist.com
On Monday, February 8, 1999 Pat and Pete Luboff, authors of "88 Songwriting Wrongs & How to Right Them", participated in our weekly songwriter web chat. Along the way, Pat Pattison ("Writing Better Lyrics" author and the founder of Berklee's songwriting major) showed up for a listen.
The topic is: Our guests tonight are Pete & Pat Luboff. If you would like to ask them a - question, please type a "?" and one of the moderators will let you know when to go - ahead. Thank you for your patience and understanding. [PatandPete] Any questions? [eddie] ? >> cathyc has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] So you are, guys. :-) Go for it, Eddie. :) [PatandPete] Edy's ready! What for? >> cathyc left has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Sorry, Eddy's ready! [eddie] whats the most common mistakes new songwriters make [PatandPete] Thank you, Eddie, for getting the ball rolling. [IreneJ] Damn! That was my next question, lol [PatandPete] We think the most common mistake new songwriters make is... [JodiMuse] --laugh-- [PatandPete] Not really taking the time before writing anything at all to determine - what exactly it is they want tocommunicate. [PatandPete] Pete says it's a matter of focusing on the one subject of your song. [PatandPete] That is to say --- the title! [eddie] but cant songs be about nothing and sound good >> JeffM has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Our image is the title is the hub of the wheel of the song and all - the lines and melodies lead into that center as spokes in the wheel. >> pat has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [IreneJ] Hi Jeff :-) [JeffM] Hi [PatandPete] Yes, they can be about nothing and sound good, but even instrumentals - are about something. [pat] Hi Jeff [PatandPete] They're focused emotionally. [JodiMuse] Hi Jeff! :) Welcome Pat! [pat] Heool Jodi, Pat and Pete [eddie] good point [eddie] ? [IreneJ] Hi Pat :-) [PatandPete] The trouble with songs that have lyrics about nothing is that they make - listeners bored angry confused and uninterested. [PatandPete] The whole point is to communicate strong feelings. [PatandPete] And they aren't nothing. [PatandPete] we're doing this job for the world, communicating what others have - trouble expressing. [eddie] true [PatandPete] By we, I mean songwriters. [PatandPete] Trouble is, we also have trouble expressing them! >> .Steveg left has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> Sherrie has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] How do I do the done, jodi? [eddie] new? [PatandPete] [done]? [JodiMuse] Welcome, Sherrie. Glad you could join us. :) Pete&Pat - when you're done, - just type in the word "done" and we'll all know that others can go ahead. Yup. - You got it. [PatandPete] Questions, anyone? [eddie] ? [neonralph] i think Eddie has another... - Go ahead Eddie. [pat] Talk about cliches >> danNsar has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [eddie] how important are ryhmes [JodiMuse] Pat, when you want to ask a question, please type in a "?" and we'll let - you know when to go ahead, ok? [neonralph] Anyone who has a question to ask, please type ? to get in the lineup. [IreneJ] Hi danNsar :-) [JodiMuse] Hi there, Dan&Sar? [PatandPete] Cliches first, then rhymes, &127;OK? [danNsar] Hi all [PatandPete] Talk about cliches. Cliches and twists on cliches make wonderful titles. [PatandPete] Make a cliche meaningful and you have a hit song. [PatandPete] In the recent revision of our book, we found a dozen cliches as examples in - the current Grammy nominees. Can't think of one now, but an oldie but goodie is "I - Don't Hvae the Heart." [PatandPete] I mean "I Don't Have the Heart." >> BillyLee has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> PhilGnCo has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] done on cliches unless you want more, now onto rhymes. How important are - rhymes? Very~ [PatandPete] Very [PatandPete] Very, Very! >> bsand100 has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] They make the meaning memorable with sound. The trick is to use them - naturally, conversationally, and not in a contrived way. We all know when you're "going - for the rhyme" and losing your grip on the meaning. >> cathy has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [Sherrie] ? [PatandPete] We love inner rhymes, near rhmyes, perfect rhymes, alliteration! [PatandPete] done [neonralph] Go ahead Sherrie! [eddie] thx [PatandPete] I mean aliteration [PatandPete] Sherrie? [Sherrie] What are some of the songwriting no-no's? >> danNsar has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] We have 88 of them in our book, but we can think of thousands. We've done - them all >> danNsar has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [neonralph] Do you have a specific area of songwriting no-nos, Sherrie? [PatandPete] Paranoia is the first thought that came to both of us. You need an open, - friendly, professional, vulnerable, helpful attitude. [PatandPete] So many writers write songs without first really thinking out what they're - writing about. [Sherrie] Not really, I've done them all, too. :-) [PatandPete] We usually start with a strong title and that does a huge lot for helping - to focus from the start. [PatandPete] We like prosody...the perfect marriage of melody and lyric. The emotion of - the melody supports the lyric like the soundtrack in the movie supports the emotions of - the scene. [pat] Hello Pat and Pete from Pat Pattison [PatandPete] Hey, Pat! Good to have you with us. [PatandPete] We could go on forever on that no no question, but we also could be done. [PatandPete] Any questions? [JodiMuse] Wow - you made it, Pat! *chuckle* That's great! [bsand100] ? [neonralph] Go ahead bsand100! TO pat> Hi. Logged on from home? >> IreneJ has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [pat] A small technological victory [JodiMuse] Ok. Just wanted to check. Didn't want anyone not enthused or anything. ;-) >> IreneJ has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] Well congratulations, Pat. We're glad to have you here. [bsand100] Thanks, do you have a set procedure to your writing, or just when the spirit - moves? [pat] yes from home >> BillyLee has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Yes, we do. The muse is always there, we just have to court her. We do - this by talking up a storm about our song in progress. [PatandPete] For instance, we could be writing a song about a couple. We always - determine the singer and the singee. [PatandPete] Who is singing and who is s/he singing to? Why are they bursting into song - at this particular moment? [pat] I'll just listen. Good stuff [PatandPete] Where exactly are they? How long have they been in their relationship? >> Sadie has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] What is the absolute core, the heart of what is being communicated? [bsand100] ? [PatandPete] We like the song to be right here, right now, face to face. We think that - makes it the most intense. >> PhilGnCo has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> PhilGnCo has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] We usually start with a strong title and flesh out the structure from - there. [Sherrie] Do you have a preference on writing from an emotional viewpoint as opposed to - telling a story. So many country songs have a definite story structure to them. Just - wondered what you prefered? >> IreneJ has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] We love those contry story songs, Where Have You Been? or A Man Holding On - To a Woman Letting Go fabulous stories and very emotional. >> cathy has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Both are great, direct emotional songs and emotional story songs. >> cathy has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> Lisa has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] done [PhilGnCo] ? [neonralph] bsand 100...did you have another question? [PatandPete] Phil? [PhilGnCo] Can you say a few words about writing in first person? [bsand100] Well, was thinking that it sounds kinda like a storyline built around the - title >> BillyLee has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] We think writing in the first person is the stongest viewpoint. The singer - is feeling the feelings in the moment of singing the song. We love that immediacy. [PatandPete] done >> neonralph has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Do you want us to just go on about whatever? [BillyLee] ? JeffM> If you have whatever still to go on about :-) [JodiMuse] Well, looks like Billy has a question. :-) >> neonralph has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge JeffM> Go ahead Bily >> Sadie has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> eddie has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [BillyLee] sorry, got bumped before I heard about rhymes...what do you think about the - rhyme "Can't", and "Paint"...the way i say it, it's a "perfect" rhyme [BillyLee] I've been told it was BAAAAAD... [PatandPete] Sounds good to us! >> eddie has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] We believe in near rhymes, anyway. Some, don't. Can't and paint would - only be near rhymes in certain parts of the country. [Lisa] ? [JodiMuse] Sorry guys - not in mine! :-) [BillyLee] this happened before they had actually heard the song...then the - individual still didn't like it...said "IT wasn't a rhyme"... - thanks [Sherrie] I'm glad to know you think using near rhymes is a good idea, perfect - rhyme is so limiting and to me, often the listener alreadys knows where you're going [bsand100] Myne either [neonralph] Go ahead Lisa! [Lisa] Who do you guys most admire as songwriters? [PatandPete] If you pronounce can't like cain't, as in I'm Just a Girl Who Cain't - Say No (Oklahoma) and it works, it works. Sometimes people just pick on things - cause they cain't think of what else to say. [neonralph] Ooops...sorry Pete and Pat... [PatandPete] Pat is an old timer admirer, Sammy Fain, Cole Porter, the Gershwins, - Roers and Hammerstein, Frank Loesser. [JodiMuse] Cole Porter. *sigh* - Sorry. Showing my "torch song" roots. ;-) >> PaulMarkSanders has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Pete likes the contemporary songwriters, Billy Steinberg, Tom Kelly, - Garth Brooks, Steve Seskin, Diane Warren. [PatandPete] Lots of country writers whose songs we love but whose names we don't - have on the tips of our fingers. >> IreneJ joined has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] done [Lisa] Thanks - you probably like Rogers and Hart too then - >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [neonralph] Next question? [PatandPete] Roger that, Lisa >> cathy joined has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> JodiMuse left has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [neonralph] Stienberg and Kelly....yeah! [PhilGnCo] ? [PatandPete] Phil? [neonralph] Go ahead Phil! [PhilGnCo] What about song pattern? Verses, choruses, bridges...? [PatandPete] God I forget the Beatles! [PatandPete] We think song structure is extremely important. [PatandPete] We usually choose the song structure very early on in the process of - writing a song. [PatandPete] Some titles seem to lend themselves to one structure or another. [PatandPete] We call the basic structures: verse/chorus and verse/bridge. [PatandPete] A verse/chorus example is: My Heart Will Go On [PatandPete] A verse/bridge example is Here You Come Again [PatandPete] Where the title goes in the structure is a key to defining which one it is. [PatandPete] In the verse/bridge structure, the title is in the verses, all the verses - and usually in the same place in all the verses - like the first like or the last line - of the verse. [PatandPete] like the first line I mean [PatandPete] In the verse/chorus structure, the title is in the chorus, usually in the - first line, sometimes in the last, and sometimes repeated throughout. [PatandPete] done >> JodiMuse has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PhilGnCo] Thank you... [neonralph] ? [PatandPete] We have a very good explanation of all this in our book. [PatandPete] Ralph? [neonralph] In the verse/bridge structure, is the verse sort of acting like a chorus? >> eddie has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] No. because a chorus usually does not change. It is repeated verbatim. In - the verse bridge structure, the verse changes every time, only the title line does not - change: example, Don't It Make My Brown Eye s Blue >> Sherrie has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> bsand100 has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Another key element in structure is the emotional high point of the song. [neonralph] I see. [PatandPete] In the verse/chorus, the chorus is the emotinal high point. In the - verse/bridge structure, the emotinal high point is in the bridge. [PatandPete] emotional [PatandPete] I have nice little graphs of this in our book, but I can't draw the - pictures here. [neonralph] So the bridge, in that situation, is not repeated verbatim? [PatandPete] The bridge in the cleanest version of the structure, is only sung once. verse, - verse, bridge, verse. If it is reapeated, it is an arrangement thing and it is repeated - verbatim. [neonralph] Got it! :-) >> Lisa has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> Lisa has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> Brak has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] We love the musesmuse, Jeff Mallett's site and the craftofsongwriting site. [PatandPete] They're all very informative and helpful. [JodiMuse] Thanks very much, Pete&Pat. :-) [PhilGnCo] ? [PatandPete] Our site does not have so many bells and whistles, but we're working on adding - helpful info little by little. [neonralph] Go ahead Phil! >> cathy has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PhilGnCo] 2 questions: I asume I can get your book at Amazon.com? What about songs like - "Busy Man" where the "chorus" changes? [PatandPete] Yes, you can get our book online from Amazon or writersdigest.com. You can - also get it direct from us at www.writesongs.com and we'll autograph it for you. [PatandPete] We're not sure about that song, can you hum a few bars? >> IreneJ has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] It's a rare song that has a changing chorus, but we do know one in country - now, "I Want To Know How Forever Feels." >> IreneJ has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] And there are all kinds of permutations on those basic structures, but the - structures are still there. [PhilGnCo] Not really. It's new by Billie Dean. But the first cuorus talks about how dad - is busy at work. The last chorus talks about how he's busy taking care of family [PatandPete] For example, there are verse chorus songs where the title is at the end of the - verse, as well as in the chorus. [PhilGnCo] Yes! that one also. [PatandPete] Probably heard it but can't recall it right now. We'll listen for it. JeffM> ? [BillyLee] ? [PatandPete] Jeff? [neonralph] Go ahead Jeff! JeffM> Are you doing any more writing about songwriting? Any more books? [PatandPete] Yes, we'r working on one right now about this way of writing songs we've - developed in our workshops. [PatandPete] We collaborate with everyone in the workshop at once. Sometimes it's nine - people writing on one song. [PatandPete] With that many people writing on one song, we all better be on the exact same - page or we'll be like a nine-headed push-me pull-me. JeffM> Thanks. I look forward to seeing it when it comes out! How do you stay on the same - page? [PatandPete] So we developed this way of determining exactly what we're writing about - before we start writing anything. [PatandPete] This process works great when you're writing all by yourself with all your - different voices in your head talking at once. JeffM> How did you know I hear voices? :-) [PatandPete] We will probably self-publish this book. If you'd like to be notified when - it's ready, e-mail us at pluboff@writesongs.com [PatandPete] done JeffM> Thanks [PatandPete] We all hear voices! [neonralph] BillyLee? Go ahead! >> danNsar has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [BillyLee] hehehe...I get the next one...I forgot......(sheepish grin) >> Lisa has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> Lisa has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Jeff, about the same page question... [PatandPete] We visualize the actual scene and the players in it and try to put ourselves - in their characters and say what they would actually say in the situation. >> Brak has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [Lisa] ? JeffM> I see [neonralph] Billy...do you have a question? >> neonralph has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge JeffM> Go ahead Lisa :-) [JodiMuse] Oops! I think Billy was waiting, Jeff... >> neonralph has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> danNsar has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] Not sure...? JeffM> I thought Billy forgot [BillyLee] sorry Ralph...i forgot exactly the question I was gonna ask..pleasre go on [Lisa] How and when do you find that your best song ideas come to you - under what - circumstances? [JodiMuse] Ah. Ok. :-) [neonralph] OK. Lisa? [PatandPete] Censored [neonralph] :-) [PatandPete] :-) (-: [JodiMuse] --laugh-- [Lisa] lol JeffM> Uh, moving right along... [PatandPete] We're getting some pretty good ones now. [PhilGnCo] I think I got it! Too old to understand! [neonralph] OK. Any questions? [PatandPete] Seriously, though. Many of our best ideas are inspired by great titles. >> IreneJ has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] The titles come at us from everywhere. Lines in movies, overheard conversations, - things we say spontaneously. >> Brak has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [Lisa] So you work hard on the title before you even begin work on the song? >> IreneJ has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] ? [PatandPete] How about the line in the Tom Cruise movie where he says "You make me want to - be a Better Man" [PatandPete] Yes, Lisa. When we write in the workshops, we may come up with 200 titles to - get one. >> PaulMarkSanders has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [Lisa] wow - thanks. [neonralph] Jodi? [PatandPete] Sometimes we start without a title, but we do have a subject and we keep - talking about it until we come up with a title. [JodiMuse] So along the same lines, Pete&Pat, what song have you written to date that - you're most proud of, and why? >> IreneJ has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] It's a song called "World Without Walls" [JodiMuse] Ooo. The title alone makes me shiver. ;-) JeffM> Nice aliteration [PatandPete] It's a positive song about communicating and realizing we're all on this - planet together, but voiced in a personal, absolutely non-preachy way. [JodiMuse] So what (besides the title) makes it so special to you? [PatandPete] It really gives us the feeling that peace in the world is possible. [neonralph] ? JeffM> <-- throws Jodi a blanket [PatandPete] Would you like to read some of the lyrics? [neonralph] Yes! [PatandPete] Blanket? [Brak] Jodi was shivering... [JodiMuse] --laugh-- I'm shivering. <Jodi pulls Jeff under the blanket with her. ahem.> [PatandPete] If we were blind we'd see no boundaries between us. Inner rhyme aliteration!) [PatandPete] If we were deaf we'd hear no lies JeffM> Uh, moving right along... [PatandPete] We live in a senseless world, we're trapped in our defenses. Don't know why. [JodiMuse] --giggle-- Seriously though - I love the idea guys. What style is it in? [PatandPete] big pop ballad [JodiMuse] Ah... I'd love to hear the music some time. It really does sound wonderful. [JodiMuse] Sorry... Think I'm interrupting Ralph? [neonralph] Nope! [PatandPete] e-mail us your address and we'll send you a copy for being so kind to us and - setting us up on this chat. [JodiMuse] I'm not the only one responsible, guys. ;-) But thanks! I think I'll take you - up on that. [PatandPete] Ralph? [JodiMuse] If you ever need a demo singer, call me. *chuckle* [neonralph] Speaking of non-preachy...what is the best way to approach a "message" song - without coming off like you're on a soapbox? [PatandPete] Good question, Ralph. [JodiMuse] Oooo! Like that question, Ralph! >> LC has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] We hate preachy songs. Songs that sound like you oughta or you should. [PatandPete] One good approach is to stay in the first person and don't come off like you - have the answer. [pat] Or 3rd Person [PatandPete] A universal message can be exressed in a very personal way. Example: We're - really Not So Different You and Me JeffM> yeah, avoid the 2nd [JodiMuse] Can I ask - why is that? What is it about the 2nd person that ends up coming - out preachy? JeffM> It's the "you" in you oughta or you should >> PhilGnCo has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] If I'm telling you what to do, I'm separating myself from you and expressing - that I know something you don't. >> PhilGnCo has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] --nod-- I see... Makes sense. [Brak] That's pretty logical [neonralph] Good points. [PhilGnCo] ? [PatandPete] Phil? [PhilGnCo] So, lyrics like "Are we too blind to see?" would be acceptable? >> BillyLee has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> Lisa has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> Lisa has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] It would depend on the context but by themselves they don't offend. [PhilGnCo] Thanx... JeffM> <-- Waiting for Alanis' next hit: "We Oughta Know" [pat] ? [neonralph] LOL! [PatandPete] But wasn't it great when Anthony Newley sang "What kind of fool am I?" And in - Gigi's lover sings "Am I a fool without a mind or have I ...been too blind to realize?" [PatandPete] If you keep it in the first person, people can relate. JeffM> ? [PatandPete] Are we too blind to see? is the first person plural, so it's inclusive - instead of separating. [neonralph] OK. Pat? [neonralph] Oops. [PatandPete] Jeff JeffM> Isn't it Pat's? [JodiMuse] I think so... [neonralph] Yes...Pat's question. [pat] How do songwriters find other good songwriters in LA? >> LC has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] There are a lot of songwriter activities in L.A. >> LC has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] The songwriter organizations, ASCAP, BMI, the California Copyright Conference, - clubs, open mic nights, there are numerous opprtunities. [pat] How would a graduating Berklee student just fresh there find them? [PatandPete] Go to the organizations listed above and ask for their recommendations. [PatandPete] The organizations know about the activities, such as open mic nights, and - their own activities and meetings. [pat] Thanks. I've got a few new good ones just out there. [neonralph] "Lil' Hank's Guide" Has a good listing of LA open mics at www.halsguide.com JeffM> First, Li'l Hank's Guide For Songwriters might be a good place JeffM> Hey, that's what I said :-) JeffM> http://www.halsguide.com/ [JodiMuse] Actually, both Dan & Sara, & Jeff & myself have pages on our sites about - locations and contact information for these and other groups. So you can check any of them - for further info too. Li'l Hank's Guide is GREAT! [PatandPete] Thanks, guys. >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Songwriting workshops are good places to meet collaborators. [JodiMuse] I think there's a resource section on UNISONG too! [PatandPete] That way, you can get to know the person and their writing before approaching - them. [neonralph] Yes...the UNISONG resource is soon to be updated and expanded. [neonralph] http://www.unisong.com/resource >> Brak has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> Brak has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] For information on upcoming conferences, I have listings both in my monthly - newsletter and on the site at http://www.musesmuse.com/markets.html . That's pretty up to - date and I'm getting new ones all the time. This is right about the time when a lot start - advertising themselves. [PatandPete] Taxi has a convention every year for its members. Over 1000 came from all - over the country last time. It's free with membership. [neonralph] Did you have a queston, Jeff? JeffM> yes JeffM> Regarding the previous thread about preachy songs.... >> PhilGnCo has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> Lisa has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Yes? >> PhilGnCo has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge JeffM> Strictly from a commercial point of view, is it dangerous to write a 1st person song - like that... >> Lisa has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Like what? JeffM> like a "What a fool I am" type, because artists might not want to sing it >> danNsar has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] If it's done in a way that shows the person is having a realization then the - song is transformed into a celebration of growth. >> danAndsar has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge JeffM> Aw, I see! The positive aspect is the realization and transformation [PatandPete] (~><~) this is us kissing while we wait JeffM> of the bad traits [PatandPete] Yes JeffM> thanks [danAndsar] ? [neonralph] Go ahead Dan and Sara! JeffM> -M) (M- these are my hands over my eyes (you have to use your imagination) [PatandPete] Good one >> LC has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> LC has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [danAndsar] What's your greatest challenge being married, raising a family and trying to - work creatively together? [PatandPete] All of the above. [Brak] That's an excellent question >> neonralph has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Continuing to grow while juggling all of the aspects of our lives. >> neonralph has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> pat has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [danAndsar] thanks. Just wondering if we're the only ones. [PatandPete] It's the challenge we think everyone has to be who we really are and do what - we really are here to do. [neonralph] ? >> pat has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [danAndsar] yes. That makes sense. [JodiMuse] Go for it, Ralph! [neonralph] Hypothetical Question: [PatandPete] Yes? [neonralph] I'm a songwriter in a location far removed from a music center.... JeffM> hypothetical is right [neonralph] I want guidance, critiques, and hopefully, some connections. >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] lol >> cathy has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [neonralph] Am I better off going with an independent songwriting "consultant" or should I - sign up with a service like TAXI? [pat] I've got to check out. Thanks everyone for a helpful discussion! Bye. [neonralph] See ya Pat! [pat] Thanks for the help. [JodiMuse] Bye Pat! Thanks for dropping by! :) [danAndsar] Bye, Pat! [PatandPete] You need both. Taxi is a valuable service and you do get good feedback, but - its main purpose is pitching. JeffM> Bye Pat! Talk to you on email! [PatandPete] If you want really individual help, you need to talk to us, or people like us - - but we're unique! [PRIVATE FROM pat] Thanks [neonralph] What should I look for when considering a consultant? [PatandPete] The songwriting organizations have some feedback services, NAS and NSAI, but I - don't know how good they are. [PatandPete] Ralph, another good question. >> PhilGnCo has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] I hear NSAI is pretty good. There's a chapter here in Toronto, actually. >> PhilGnCo has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [Lisa] ? [PatandPete] We think attitude is everything. A good consultant does not come on superior - to you. >> pat has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [Lisa] I am not a performer, so I only write songs. Someone told me the best way to get - them out there is through entertainment lawyers - how do I find a good one of these ? [PatandPete] Just a second Lisa, let us finish Ralph's question [PatandPete] A good consultant is there to supoprt your creativity at whatever level you're - working at. [PatandPete] support\ [PatandPete] A good consultant can answer all your questions readily. [PatandPete] A good consultant shows insight into your particular needs, not just standard - answers. >> LC has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] A good consultant can give you helpful insight into all levels of the - songwriting process, writing, collaborating, demo making, pitching, etc. >> LC has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> Brak has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Lisa, now to your question about music business attorneys. >> Brak has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [neonralph] Thanks, Pat and Pete! [PatandPete] Music business attorneys are not a way to get your songs out. [PatandPete] They are used mainly by artists/bands to get to record labels. [PatandPete] Music attorneys are very selective about who they will take on in this way. - They have their own reputations to uphold. [PatandPete] Any lawyer who charges you up front to pitch you is not worth dealing with. - Let them get their money at the dealmaking end. [PatandPete] Sorry, songwriters, you have to go to publishers, producers, or straight to - the artists. Lawyers won't do it for you. >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PhilGnCo] ? [Lisa] Great information - thank you so much! [PatandPete] Phil? [PhilGnCo] Does your book explain creating demos and pitching? wha t about "Songwriters - Market Place"? What about critique message boards? [PhilGnCo] Sorry all. I realize thats three questions. But short answers will do. [PatandPete] Yes, our book covers the whole process of songwriting from first idea to - bank deposit to the psychiatrist's or chirpractor's couch. >> JeffM has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge The topic is: Our guests tonight are Pete & Pat Luboff. If you - would like to ask them a question, please type a "?" and one of - the moderators will let you know when to go ahead. Thank you for - your patience and understanding. [PhilGnCo] :) [PatandPete] Songwriter's Market Place is a useful and economical tool. But there are - other reference books, like the Recording Industry Sourcebook that we recommend [PatandPete] Sorry to be such neophytes, but we haven't seen critique message boards. - Where would we find one? [PhilGnCo] Jodi.....Answer??? [PatandPete] I would be wary of taking advice from strangers, though. [JodiMuse] Actually, Rob @ Lyricalline has a great one. www.lyricalline.com . You post - your lyrics and others comment on them. Also, there are various message boards around. - But I'll tell you - RMMS - rec.music.makers.songwriting is one of the BEST places to get - critiques. The people there are fantastic. [neonralph] I see a lot of this in the rec.music.makers.songwriting newsgroup. [JodiMuse] I also have a message board off of The Muse's Muse. But it's not strictly - for lyric critiques. Has a section for it though. [JodiMuse] Irene is a regular at RMMS. She and the others are wonderful. [PatandPete] Thanks, we'll check that out. [PhilGnCo] Thanx Jodi! I'll visit RMMS also >> LC has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] You really should! If you haven't been to the newsgroup, you're really - missing something. [PatandPete] We're getting into the last 10 minutes here. Last minute questions? >> LC has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [Lisa] ? >> Brak has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] Lisa? >> Brak has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [Lisa] What do you think is the best way for a songwriter (not performer) to make demos? [PatandPete] Hire someone who sings like an angel to record your demo. Work with a MIDI - studio guitar/keyboard player. JeffM> Ask Jodi to sing for you [PatandPete] Be there and work directly with them for the learning process of it. [JodiMuse] --laugh-- Thanks, Jeff. ;-) [neonralph] Yeah...we recommend Jodi. [JodiMuse] Lisa, if you're ever in the Toronto area, let me know. ;-) [Lisa] Thanks. [Brak] ? [JodiMuse] I've done sessions for nothing at all but a credit - and will continue to do - so until my name's out there. You gotta pay your dues, right? I love it so much I - don't mind at all. :-) [PatandPete] Brak? [Brak] If you guys could project yourselves say 5 years into the future, what do you - think you could look back on and be most proud of accomplishing? [JodiMuse] Oooo! Interesting question. JeffM> this chat? >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] --giggle-- [PhilGnCo] Pat and Pete (and all who asked questions) Thanks SOOOO much for this - informative session. I need to go also. >> cathy has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] Thanks for dropping by, Phil! Good to see you again. :-) >> PhilGnCo has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] That we're still doing it for the love of it. It's one of the deepest, - most satisfying things we do. We also love to pass along this conviction that - songwriting >> danAndsar has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] is a worthy, necessary, useful, crucial occupation. [neonralph] That's something I need to hear more often! [PatandPete] The world needs our songs, yours and ours. We do a service for the world - by sweating blood over our songs. [Brak] So you guys consider this more like a calling so to speak...keen! [JodiMuse] :-) I think we all do! [PatandPete] Yes, and we see it as a tool for never ending growth as people. [PatandPete] We keep trying to get to the heart of the matter. [LC] Type HERE? [PatandPete] LC? [neonralph] I'm writing this down...taping it to the bathroom mirror. Inspirational - words, indeed. Thanks. [PatandPete] Glad you like them! [Brak] Indeed - something perfect for a newbie like me to go by, and hopefully not - forget.... >> danAndsar has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] Every time you forget, Brak, just read the log. --chuckle-- [PatandPete] It's a challenge to keep being positive in a world and abusiness that - generally could do without you - or so they think! [LC] Hi if you don't live in a music hub,how do you find a publisher? >> neonralph has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> neonralph has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [PatandPete] The Recording Industry Sourcebook is a good source - about $90. Chip in - with some friends [PatandPete] Writer's Digest Songwriter's Market has lot's of listings for about $22. [PatandPete] But you can get the publishing company names from the labels or Billboard - Magazine charts , then look up their contact info on the ASCAP, BMI and SESAC databases. >> danAndsar has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [JodiMuse] Good idea, Pete & Pat. Never thought of that! [PatandPete] It's been fun hanging with you. We'll be happy to do this again sometime - in the future. Don't forget --- Write On! [PatandPete] Say goodnight Gracie. JeffM> Thank you very much for speaking with us tonight [JodiMuse] Thanks very much for coming by, guys. tt was great. :) [PatandPete] You're very welcome. JeffM> goodnight Gracie >> danAndsar has joined channel #Songwriting_Lounge [neonralph] Thank you very much Pat and Pete! [cathy] thanks Pat and Pete [Lisa] Thanks - great chat. [PatandPete] Thank you all for being here with us. [danAndsar] Thanks. we enjoyed it! [Brak] Thank you all - look forward to future chats! [LC] thank-you >> PatandPete has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge >> cathy has left channel #Songwriting_Lounge [neonralph] Well folks, that was an exceptional evening, eh? JeffM> <-- peeks out from under the blanket and rubs his eyes [JodiMuse] Well guys, so ends our chat. :-) Definitely exceptional! <tickles Jeff - under the blanket> [neonralph] Wow you two...! [JodiMuse] lol JeffM> :-) [JodiMuse] Maybe I should end the log? --giggle--
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Copyright 1999 Jeff Mallett